March 13, 2009

Space Travelers

Category: News — Ira @ 5:38 pm


“At no time, when the astronauts were in space were they alone:
there was a constant surveillance by UFOs.”

—NASA Astronaut Scott Carpenter

Last Sunday night, I was in a mopey mood. My internal clock thoroughly messed up by the time change. Of course, no sports worth watching on TV. Tom and Jerry, my all-time favorite cartoon, had been removed from its 7:30 slot and replaced with some modern inanity, for reasons known only to some young hot shot executive who doesn’t appreciate classic cartoons. Probably too violent and politically incorrect. After the Simpsons, I clicked around randomly to find something, anything half interesting. And happened on the History Channel. A two hour special was underway. Something called Ancient Aliens.

It was about UFOs, and the possibility that ancient civilizations on earth may have been influenced and assisted by aliens. Crackpot stuff, by normal standards. Who could take such a theory seriously? But I watched it. And found it fascinating.

I’ve been exposed to UFO writings since childhood. Dad always had a few paperbacks about flying saucers strewn around the house. With their pages of grainy black and white photos of flying discs. He may even have sold those books at Pathway. I’m not sure if he believed UFOs existed, but he probably did. Or at least recognized the possibility. A closet believer. He just didn’t publicize it a lot. No sense getting yourself drummed out of the Amish church for heresy if you don’t have to. Plus, it takes some fortitude to stand up and lend your credibility to such outlandish beliefs.

The TV show was a broad examination of ancient evidence from across the world that simply defies logic. UFOs and space travelers might not exist, but there’s sure a lot of strange inexplicable stuff out there. A few examples:

Archeologists have unearthed several little model airplanes, made of solid gold. Each with wings, tail fins, and fuselage. And a little stone rocket, with a suited astronaut complete with breathing hoses. Tiny things, easily held in one hand. Thousands of years old. Absolutely remarkable. Who made them, and why? No one knows. Did the ancients just imagine them, or were they emulating what they actually saw in the skies around them?

And there is a map of the world (made of leather or papyrus, I don’t remember) more than five hundred years old. The map is every bit as detailed as modern maps, the continents laid out exactly as seen from outer space. Complete with topography and rivers that were not even discovered at that time.

From some ancient shipwreck, a brass navigation device was recovered. A little rectangular box. Clogged and frozen with ocean debris, the box was eventually x-rayed. The x-rays revealed an intricate mass of cogs and gears. More complex than a modern Swiss wind-up watch. The device is a computer. Thousands of years old.

And then, of course, there are the pyramids. And countless other large, complex ruins. Not only in Egypt, but in many countries. Mexico and South America. Constructed of huge blocks of stones weighing many tons each. Yet so finely fit together that a knife blade cannot be inserted between the stones.

And that’s only a partial list.

I drank it all in, mesmerized. Wild, wild stuff. Perhaps Solomon meant it literally when he wrote there is nothing new under the sun.

I realize that when you watch a TV documentary, you see only what the editors and producers have chosen to include. And want you to see. Their biases and perceptions, as well as their political views, always affect the end product. I try to sift carefully through any presentation and make my own judgments, draw my own conclusions.

But what explanations are there for these mysteries? Someone made these things. The little airplanes and the stone rocket. The map. The computer. And of course, the vast deserted jungle cities and the Great Pyramids of Egypt.

But who? Why? How? Where did the technology come from? Who knew it? When was it lost? How? With all our modern technology, we would be hard pressed to build the Great Pyramids today. How was it done so long ago?

I don’t know. No one does, when it comes right down to it. The mists of centuries and millennia are like a dark cloak. We can’t see through it. No one alive today was there. So we can only read the clues and surmise. But we can’t deny the evidence of the artifacts themselves. Much as we’d like to. Convenient as that might be.

I’ve heard it theorized that advanced technologies existed pre-flood. That Noah and his sons were pretty isolated, completely absorbed in building the ark for 120 years, and when they disembarked after the deluge, they didn’t know enough about the advanced technologies to preserve them. (It took some very advanced technology to construct the ark, come to think of it.) Besides, everything was washed away, destroyed by the waters. Makes sense, from an old school biblical point of view. But who really believes that?

My take on it all? I’ll take the plunge here. Admit it. Maybe I’m a loon, but I believe there is life on other planets. Not just a planet. Planets. Hundreds, maybe thousands of them. Or more. And that it’s quite possible, even probable, that earth-bound ancients were assisted by beings from some of these places.

And no, I am not a sci-fi aficionado. Not a Star Wars freak. Or a Trekkie. Last such movie I saw was Will Smith in Independence Day a few years back.

To me, it’s just rational deduction. We are a speck of dust in the universe. There are hundreds of millions of suns with billions of planets orbiting around them. From sheer statistical probability, some of those planets must contain life and civilizations. Maybe similar to ours, maybe not. Many of those civilizations are probably far more advanced than our own. And they likely have the means to travel to our dimensions.

It’s arrogant, in my opinion, for earthlings to insist they are the only life in the universe. We may be unique. But not exclusive.

I’m paranoid enough to believe that aliens are in contact with most of the leading governments on this earth. And that our own government knows and hides from us almost unimaginable things. Ever wonder where all the great technological advances came from these last few decades? How we even began our own tentative space exploration?

Problem is, I share those views with a lot of pretty unsavory people out there. Wild-eyed new age types. Many of these people look flat out weird. Act strange. And are not that credible. Some of them, I’m convinced, are possessed. And not by good spirits.

Even so, one must consider the evidence, and not discount something out of hand just because kooky fringe elements advocate it.

There are countless internet sites devoted to aliens, UFOs and space and time travel. People claim this, and people claim that. Some claim to have been abducted by aliens and taken aboard their ships. Others claim our government has bases on the moon and cities on Mars.

Crackpots and kooks, most of them. But are they all? I doubt it. If even a fraction of their claims were actually true, how could they possibly convince us?

There have been thousands of UFO sightings over the past fifty-plus years, by thousands of people. (Modern UFO sightings began in 1947.) Including a lot of very credible people. Ordinary Joes. Military people. Cops. Common citizens who would have nothing to gain from lying.

Did they see something strange and tangible, or was it always just an illusion? With so many eyewitness accounts, it’s difficult to imagine that something real isn’t out there. Something unknown and unearthly.

Christians usually claim there is no mention of such things in the Bible. But that’s arguable. The prophet Ezekiel pretty much describes a flying saucer spaceship in his writings. A detailed description of wheels within wheels: “…and the wheels were full of eyes all around—the wheels that the four of them had.” Ezkl. 10:12. This he saw, hovering over the earth. Jesus spoke of other sheep that are not of this fold. He might well have been referring to “sheep” from other planets.

Then again, maybe the UFOs occasionally break through from another dimension that exists right here, all around us. A fourth dimension. One that exists beyond our perceptions of time and space.

But I may be way off. There’s really no way of knowing, one way or another. On the list of what’s really important, it’s pretty far down there. But still, it’s fascinating to ponder, and to consider the possibilities. We can only view the evidence, or at least one side of it, as I did last Sunday night, and draw our own conclusions.

Back to earth and earthly things. This weekend, I’m meeting with an informal study group to discuss a series of essays titled Mises on Money. Written by Gary North. Economic theory is not my forte, but in these troubled times when the government is throwing around trillions of dollars like so much confetti, it would behoove us all to learn the basics of sound monetary policy. So we’ll have a good understanding of how and why the current system must and will collapse. And not be surprised when it does.

So we’ll have a round-table discussion. Solve the world’s problems. I hear sushi is being served.



  1. It is incredible how closely your thoughts on the subject mirror my own. Right down to your thoughts on the company we keep.

    Comment by RagPicker — March 13, 2009 @ 8:45 pm

  2. …after spending a couple of days in California – Im pretty sure I observered aliens or at least post op plastic surgery, hard to tell the difference. I am a Trekie of my own free will and a convert to the genius of George Lucus, I wrote a paper on Modern Mythology and Stat Wars some years back before the prequel business. I have a reoccuring dream that I’m married to Worf – the arrogant, rough, growling, combative Klingon from Star Trek the Next Gen. (yes I sought guidence on this one) — on an academic level ” the aliens did it or they did it for the aliens” is a common theme in pre Columbian art. Given the relience on cosmology and the size of their monuments and the petroglyphs that can only be seen completely from the air.

    Yes let’s have sushi, California roll anybody?

    Comment by Glo — March 14, 2009 @ 10:03 am

  3. Hi Ira – Maybe after your money meeting on “…how and why the current system MUST and WILL collapse”, (fun group, where do I sign up?!) and you “solve the world’s problems”, maybe you can work on one of those other worlds out there!! HA HA Good one, huh?? And of course there’s more life out there – haven’t you seen Planet of the Apes?? Duh! Your mind is one busy little beehive isn’t it? I know a few people I’d like to send to another planet so if you encounter any “martians”, please send them my way!! Have a good week!

    Comment by Beth Russo — March 14, 2009 @ 6:02 pm

  4. Come on, Ira. You must be trying to smoke out the lunatics.

    Just because you saw a golden plane on TV, with someone claiming its an artifact, you accept it? Right on par with the Twin Towers coming down from smoky fires on a couple floors. (See 911Mysteries:Demolitions for sensible interpretation, and amazing evidence and first hand reports.)

    But back to UFOs. Ezekiel explicitly states his vision was of God’s glory. Demonic activity is a reality. And perhaps more important than wild speculation is the “idol” we have of evolutionary advancement of mankind. Plays nicely into our sense of self-importance.

    A good book challenging the evolutionary interpretation of history (as well as many others) is Herbert Schlossberg’s _Idols for Destruction_. Prof from Univ of Michigan, I knew a church with students from Cornell who studied this heady, thoughtful book.

    Continuing on that line, why would it surprise us if previous civilizations (now destroyed) has advanced technology? The Egyptians could preserve a rose for 100 years (and look at the mummies, among other things you mentioned). The Romans had indoor flush toilets. And long before Columbus, ancient sea peoples (probably in times of the ancient Israelites) had maps of sea lanes over the whole world (you can buy Maps of the Ancient Sea Kings at Vision Forum online bookstore). Etc. as you point out. The simple explanation of things to be only seen from above is: they built them for their heavenly gods to see; or they flew.

    When our civilization is overthrown, what will people a thousand years hence think of Americans? How within a couple centuries of the founding of a free government (IF that can be remembered and preserved intelligibly), they had devolved to murdering a large portion of their population, and exporting this barbaric practice all over the world. What will computers look like, cell phones, cars? They will all be broken and rusted to bits, and those future people – so absorbed in their own pressing problems – will assume we were barbarians little advanced from the Germanic and British tribes from which we descended a scant few centuries prior.

    There is value in history, and the Bible revelation is given in the overall form of a world history, with rewards and punishments meted out by a just God, who pleads with folks to receive and display His mercy. (No UFOs or other planets, which are irrelevant to us, or they’d be mentioned. “Other sheep,” mentioned to Jews, meant dirty, non-Law-abiding Gentiles. I DID see a guy on TV at the airport once who had a neck so like a lizard that it freaked me out; more so because they kept showing the security level was “red.” Gullible Americans, glued to telescreens.)

    Ira’s response: I absolutely accept that the aritifacts I saw ON THE TV SHOW were legit.

    Comment by LeRoy — March 14, 2009 @ 8:21 pm

  5. Remind me to bring my encyclopedia and Bible to the next reading on Friday! Whoa, charlie! I think the comments can almost be as much fun as the writings sometimes. :) And speaking of UFOs, remember those little flying saucer candies that had little candies on the inside? They reminded me of Communion wafers, only with candy on the inside. Wonder if they still make those… OK, everyone can go back to being philosophical and curious – yawwwwwwwnnnnnn.

    Comment by Beth Russo — March 14, 2009 @ 9:25 pm

  6. Yep, Beth, the little wafers are still around. I sell them in my candy store. . . real beings show up every week to buy them. :)


    Comment by Amos - Leola — March 14, 2009 @ 10:03 pm

  7. If you believe that the Good Lord made everything you see around you, including [hundreds of millions of suns with billions of planets] in six days, then it is certainly a small step of the imagination to think He made other planets like ours, is it not? I’ve often heard people talk about what a Great and Mighty God we have watching over us, then almost sneer at you [and in all probability literally did as soon as your back was turned] when one would suggest life on other planets. Anyway, look at the wreck we’re running, wouldn’t you want to try it again somewhere else? Oh well I can’t forget it’s human nature to reject anything we don’t understand. [for some reason I just thought of my wife!]

    Does the Bible not say THAT EYE HATH NOT SEEN, NOR EAR HEARD: NEITHER HATH IT ENTERED INTO THE HEART OF MAN, WHAT THINGS GOD HATH PREPARED FOR THEM THAT LOVE HIM. This is the same God that created us and the universe, so I think it not only possible but probable. But who knows? You and I can’t so much as describe the color blue to a blind person that has never seen [try it sometime], so we’re pretty limited.

    At any rate, I was cruising around the Internet and happened to run across your site. Finding it interesting, I read through 15 or 20 stories and decided to shoot over an e-mail. You obviously have a knack for writing [I myself have a knack for reading]. Anyway, after reading about your background [Amish ultra conservative] and then a story or two later about your political leanings, a question began forming in my mind.

    Like it or not, religion makes up a large part of who we are and it can be much the same with politics, so my question is; How is it that someone who was born and raised in a conservative church [apparently like no other] then moves on to a much more liberal church in comparison [forward minded liberal thinking] is so ultra conservative when it comes to politics? Is not liberal liberal ? Is not conservative conservative? I had thought I had at least a flimsy grasp on human nature but this, this strikes me as an oxymoron. Of course it’s OK if you wish to be liberal in religion and conservative in politics, whatever blows your hair back. But in most people, I think the stripe runs the same way [Picture a bunch of far left leaning Amish-men sending large donations to George Soros]. You get the picture.

    Anyway, enjoy your articles, head and shoulders above 98 percent of the drivel floating around out there so I’ll be checking back, and I hope to hear from you. I’m curious about your response already! Sincerely ,


    Comment by V.B. — March 14, 2009 @ 10:51 pm

  8. The main difficulty of sentient beings from other star systems (ours seems to only include us) is the speed limit called the speed of light. Special relativity appears to show that nothing, including pure information, can travel faster than a photon in free space. This speed limit is about 300,000 meters per second. Light is fast but once we start to think of solar and extra solar distances, the time adds up. A photon takes 2 seconds from Earth to its moon. One needs 12 minutes from Sol to Earth. Earth to Mars is about 20 minutes, depending on where the two planets happen to be in their respective orbits. The closest extra solar star is 4 years away by the light beam.

    As you can see, while space is full of hundreds of billions, even trillions of stars and that we now know most probably have planets, getting there is really hard to do. The fastest human artifact is Pioneer 10, now out past the Ort cloud and Sol’s tenuous atmosphere and in interstellar space. This probe was launched in the 1970’s. If it were aimed for Alpha Centauri, that star only 4 light years away, it will arrive in about 100,000 years.

    Now, one could just travel at C (light speed) or a sizeable percentage of it and get around in a few hundred years to a large sphere of solar systems surrounding us, using suspended animation or a multi-generation ship. The problem here is that accelerating a mass to C requires infinite energy, which is why C is the speed limit. OK, just go to 80% C. The problem here is that space is not empty. So called deep space has one hydrogen molecule in every cubic meter of volume. That seems like a trivial problem.

    No, it is a death storm. Hit a molecule at 80% C relative, it has the energy level of a hard x-ray. Hit hundreds every second (remember this ship is big and going fast), and the carbon (or copper or silicon) based life forms inside and their machines are getting fried fast. Now, this problem can be avoided with an engineering masterpiece far beyond our technology called a hydrogen ram scoop. This is a ship that generates a ring of magnetic energy hundreds to thousands of miles in diameter that sucks in all those pesky little molecules. Furthermore, these molecules become the fuel and reaction mass for the titanic fusion engine(s) that power this high energy monster.

    Ok, lets give other civilizations credit for being far ahead of us. Problem is where are the engine signatures? One of these ships has an energy signature approaching a small star. If any are cruising in our part of the Milky Way, we would have seen them. We are still a primitive space-faring race, but have instruments in space that are sensitive enough to see ram scoop signatures in our galaxy. Now, it is possible that Special Relativity is not the end of macroscopic physics. It is possible that Special Relativity, like Galilean and Newtonian relativity, does not fully explain motion in space but is only a limited case. If so, maybe traveling from point A to point B faster than a photon in free space is possible. Think worm holes and space-time discontinuities.

    Modern science fiction writers need to move their characters through space much faster than C allows so they use plot devices such as stating that Special Relativity describes reality in deeply curved space-time, as is the case near a large gravitational object such as a sun and on that sun’s planets but once the ship is out in flat space, it can kick in some kind of jump or warp drive and zip along. The ship just needs to stay out of gravity wells or it suddenly ceases to exist. Nice plot device that at least acknowledges our current understanding of physics, but a writer’s plot does not reality make.

    Now, I will admit that Earth may be visited by dimensional travelers from alternate Earths found in a Type I, II, III or IV multiverse. There seems to be better physics out there stating that there is more than one universe and they could be quantum entangled with us versus the possibility of long range cruises from other solar systems in this universe.

    OK, I want to see very hard evidence of these space travelers such as clear DNA sequences that could not have an Earth origin or sentient life forms based on copper or silicon rather than carbon that breathe fluorine or chlorine instead of oxygen. The claims of sentient life of extra terrestrial origin are very bold and beg very bold proof indeed. The Bible may or may not describe extra terrestrial life. I do not think that it does.

    However, my salvation is not hinged on the possibility of extra terrestrial life so God may have never mentioned other sentient beings in His creation because they do not matter to Earth humans, only Jesus does. At the time in history when Jesus walked the earth, there were high civilizations in India, China, Japan and Meso-America. The scriptures do not talk about any of these people beyond the general idea of Gentiles, an idea that includes these peoples.

    On another issue, steel loses ½ of its tensile and yield strength when heated to 1,100 degrees. Heat it further and the loss becomes more, fast. A house fire in a room that has solid petroleum (also known as foam filled vinyl furniture) sitting around gets up past 1,800 degrees in a few minutes as the free burning fire flashes the interior. This is why building codes require that high rise buildings protect their steel load bearing members by incasing them in concrete or wallboard or a spray on foam. These systems give anywhere from two to four hours of protection. If the protection system is removed, the steel is going to fail sooner than later. If a 757 slices through a steel framed building and mechanically removes the spray on insulation while starting a JP-4 fueled paper and solid petroleum inferno, the steel is going to lose its safety factor fast. This gets worse if that 350 mph really high energy cruise missile took out some major vertical frame components and forced corner structures to take up two to three times their normal load. Chief Brannigan preached from the 1940’s until his death two years ago that buildings are gravity restraint systems just waiting for a chance to kill firefighters. This is why we study building construction as part of our in depth fire science educations. The WTC Building 1 and Building 2 were a pair of gravity restraint assemblies that surprisingly held on for over an hour. Look at the collapse sequence. The second building hit fell before the first one. Why? Simple, the towering inferno was much lower in the building so those poor, overheated, stretching and compressing vertical columns and horizontal beams were holding back thousands of tons more mass trying to accelerate to the center of the earth than the other building’s over heated structure. At one moment in time, one member suddenly distorted in Euler bending and the house of cards collapsed in seconds as the load transferred to other columns that instantly distorted. The history of the fire service is dotted with line of duty deaths inside unprotected steel framed buildings, the Super Sofa Store fire in Charlestown, SC in June, 2007 being a more recent disaster that throws light on the WTC collapses. The Sofa Store was never protected but the WTC towers became unprotected in the twinkling of an eye.

    Comment by Mark Hersch — March 15, 2009 @ 12:27 am

  9. About Comment #7 (V.B.), after reading a lot of Ira, I don’t think of him as liberal – what sparked that thought? Not believing in one’s “born-into” church’s philosophy and believing in something different doesn’t necessarily make one liberal (except usually to those whom you’ve left). Then again, I don’t know what church he belongs to now, so maybe it is liberal. Who knows? Let’s talk about him like he’s not here, want to? ha ha And your comment about your wife and rejecting what we don’t understand – brilliant! That was hilarious – keep ‘em guessing is the name of the game. :)

    Thanks, Amos, about the flying saucer candies and you just THINK they’re real beings buying them! Never be too sure! :0 I think it’s precious that you own a candy store – what a fun job! I bet you see a lot of happy people in there. Enjoy!

    And to comment #8 (Mark Hersch) – no duh!! That’s exactly what I was thinking – all of it! :) I’m just teasing. I really need to get a life.

    Comment by Beth Russo — March 15, 2009 @ 10:37 am

  10. Sorry I don’t move you, Beth! Feel free to skip this one.

    If the artifacts are real, it still does not prove UFOs or space travel, nor even attest to it, absent some writing suggesting that. (It would be serious, big news, no?) Rather, it attests to advanced civilizations in the past. This does not require some “higher intelligence”, merely at least the same collective intelligence we have today. Not a great stretch.

    There is a lesson; two that come to mind immediately. Natural inevitable evolution of man is not a given. Technological advancement does not make a lasting civilization. If you bring in special revelation, a third: God may have something to say.

    “We are DEVO….” Babylon to Medo-Persia, to Greece, to Rome descended, and had less grandeur as history progressed. Thanks for an interesting topic, one that is grasping many minds; a strange, invented “nostalgia.”

    Comment by LeRoy — March 15, 2009 @ 8:28 pm

  11. Methinks thou has been bored out of thy mind.

    Mistake number one: “I was in a mopey mood.” Solution: snap out of it, get over it. Rent or buy some Tom and Jerry movies to have on hand the next time you need an antidote.

    Okay, here goes; so maybe there is intelligent life out there. I can open myself to that possibility. I can also open myself to the likelihood that Old Faithful is an exhaust pipe to the nuclear plant that powers Middle Earth. If Ezekiel was seeing something tangible and it was not a vision from God; then C S Lewis definitely saw things that came from someplace. And John saw these beasts with many heads and of multiple species. Surely they were from somewhere. Maybe Middle Earth. So we conclude that there is a remote possibility that there is life out there.

    Let’s say for a minute that aliens are responsible for our technological advancements. If they are helping us in our intellectual expansion due to their expertise in this area, then who helped them? Other aliens? If you believe God is not the one giver of intelligence and that “they” are the reason for new inventions, are “they” responsible for the wheel? It must be them, I sure can’t imagine any human ever actually thinking up something new by his own power.

    Now let us examine the facts that were presented. 500 year old maps, computers and pyramids; the analysts that determined the age of the maps, were they the ones advocating an earth millions of years old? Computers run by wheels and cogs? You stated that Noah and his sons may have been isolated, therefore didn’t know of this technology. In the next sentence you suggest that they used it to build the ark. Sounds like a flip flop, a fish out of water. Pyramids, okay I am with you here. Mesmerized. Wild, wild stuff. Although I don’t think that they were assisted by aliens or 3D solid model CAD drawings. Therefore it is wild and mesmerizing. If it were aliens I would be a little spooked – rather spooked a lot, scared crapless. If they had CAD it would still be amazing, because CAD is manmade. Or is it?

    As for the time we spent discussing Mises on Money, we could have come to a conclusion a lot earlier if you had just shared that these high falute’n officials had input from the cosmos. What a waste of an evening. I feel much better knowing we are not being guided by these blind goons. Rather by extraterrestrial intervention.

    The next time mopeyness decends and T&J fail you, call me. I can have sushi made in about 2 hours. Sushi and a hot debate, I can’t think of more pleasant evening. Well, tearing up your blog has its charms. Stimulating. Thanks.

    Peace out.

    P.S. They’re out there.

    Ira’s reponse: Ahem. You forgot the little model airplanes. I suppose they just materialized on their own???

    Comment by Dave Miller — March 16, 2009 @ 9:14 am

  12. Wow! This is right down my line. (Don’t have time to comment on it though!) I’m putting my money on the pre-flood hypothesis, although I don’t want to totally discount the “life on other planets” theory. I mean, I think life on other planets is possible, though not necessarily likely. I do think if there were alien contact, there would not be much of a chance the contact would be kept under wraps. Watergate, anyone? Lewinsky? Iran contra? And if the president of the United States can’t keep a secret, who can?

    Comment by Jason Yutzy — March 16, 2009 @ 5:41 pm

  13. (yawn) here’s another long post to cure insomnia…

    I just had time to read Mark’s astute space travel comment _after_ my last post, since it was long and I wanted to digest it. Only then did I discover he responded to my comment on the 9/11 Towers’ demolition (which included WTC7, which WAS a demolition – and was announced on the BBC news as having happened, on live TV, while the picture of the site in the background shows Building 7 still standing! – just Google “BBC reports on the collapse of WTC7″ for links to the footage). Mark implies the Twins fell because of steel beam weakening. I think I need to reply, lest the implication rest that this is a reasonable explanation.

    Mark gives a Charleston fire as evidence of similar collapse. So I looked it up. See for yourself the worst picture posted at Wikipedia of the after-collapse structure: .

    The steel beams are hardly bent, let alone cut to pieces. The structure, while compromised, is hardly “collapsed.” It was just the roof that “collapsed,” not the building, though even that tragically killed brave firefighters in the line of duty.

    Again, see 911Mysteries:Demolitions for more well-prepared technical explanations, and clips of first hand reports about the Twin Towers total collapse – and more than collapse, pulverization and destruction. And while I detest his liberal and green statist-based “solutions,” David Ray Griffin’s book answering the Popular Mechanics propaganda is another excellent resource, if you just look at the facts and logic (and avoid like the plague his attempt to shoehorn his politics into it). It’s titled, _Debunking 9/11 Debunking_, and answers the official 9/11 Commission report as well as PopMech. Interestingly enough, the usually reliable PM had its editorial staff fired, and the main editor replacement was Homeland Security chief Chertoff’s brother. No kidding. Then the debunking article came out. (Griffin called PM and challenged Mr. Chertoff on the propriety of this – interesting reply, documented in his thorough book.)

    So, Mark, a fire on several floors, which is not likely to have reached super high temps (certainly not steel furnace conditions), brought the _whole_ tower down at free fall speed. (If a pancake collapse, the force of the _weight_ of upper floors would cause collapse. This takes time. But they went down as fast as a ball dropped from the top – no resistance.)

    Secondly, the beams just happened to break into pieces the right size to load onto trucks (as they immediately were – and shipped overseas, without tracing, and before evidence could be collected about possible use of thermite or thermate beam-cutting chemicals). FEMA was also there on a preplanned drill (as well as 4 war games in US airspace that day, lending confusion to air traffic controllers and seeming to lend credibility to stand down orders from Cheney, so that fighter jets were not scambled as usual – at least 100 times per year when any commercial liners strayed from flight paths, yes, PRE-9/11).

    Thirdly, molten metal flowed in the underground floors for weeks, months later. This, from jet fuel high above ground that burned up quickly? Or mere furnace explosions? Note, too, that concrete and office furniture, etc. was pulverized, not just crushed with bits of the debris everywhere. You didn’t see the concrete floors laying piled up, because they were pulverized to dust.

    Fourthly, explosions were heard and reported – both pre-collapse in the basements, and then during the “collapse.” These things were reported on live TV at the time (later not re-played by network reports, as they followed their “policies”).

    Fifthly, there were squibs shooting out of the building below the collapsing floors, _before_ the upper floors fell on them. Much more, including the fact that Marvin Bush, Prez’ brother, was in charge of security for several years as they rewired the buildings with “new security,” resigning 9/12. But to think they were wiring for demolition is a “conspiracy theory,” by that label to be rejected out of hand. Too big to believe. (Note to self: re-read Machiavelli’s _The Prince_, which “ethics” Ron Paul reported neo-cons were handing out in Congress. And look up the call for the necessary New Pearl Harbor event, I think by the Council on Foreign Relations, to get Americans to give up their fixation on soveriegnty and nationalistic military defense.)

    But just stick to the physics of the thing. The more obsolete Empire State Building had been hit by a plane many years ago, but did not collapse. And no steel frame structure has ever collapsed due to fire – even fires hotter and longer than those during 9/11. The Towers were made in a grid to withstand the possibility of such plane crashes. Such total collapse from mere planes and a few floors of jet fuel fires is a near impossibility, and unexplainable (and unexplained – all reports of how this happened do not give evidence, selectively ignore actual evidence, and propose hypothetical imaginations to fit the given government story). A controlled demolition, however, fits the evidence, however many questions this raises. Mark, check out 911Mysteries:Demolitions
    ( and see if there is a problem with their physics. Their footage of controlled demolitions is interestingly similar. Along with the free fall speed, which requires timed explosives.

    How this fits this blog: sinful hearts is an explanation that needs not jump to alien intelligence to explain opposition to common people’s good; and advanced technology does not prove advancement in civilization, at least in Kingdom of God terms.

    Comment by LeRoy — March 16, 2009 @ 9:32 pm

  14. The natural mind is a marvelous thing.
    [After all, we ARE made in the ‘image and likeness of God’. AND…we are the ‘pinnacle’ of His creative efforts.]
    While it is true…that it [natural mind] CAN BE an enemy against understanding some things about God…it also was meant to be used. [the reason i say this, is because some believe it is wrong to reason/think/analyze/ponder/evaluate/debate]
    A sound/rational/reasoning mind is essential…not to be cast aside, so to speak, but to be put to use.
    Like all things…there is that balance. To use it…but at the same time to not let it become a stumbling block…
    While education can be a very valuable asset…common sense is priceless. [having BOTH would be the BEST…but if i had to make a choice, i would take common sense]
    It is that ‘balance’ that is so hard to achieve…attain…straying neither to the right nor to the left…
    Seems to me there is only one conclusion one can come to…if one simply examines all the information pertaining to 9/11.
    Then it is the matter of…what lies behind it all…!

    Wouldn’t the verses following vs 9 [quoted in previous post] provide some essential qualifiers?
    9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
    10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
    11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
    12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
    13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man’s wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
    14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

    World without end….
    An atom is a ‘world’. [Fashioned according to the very same basic principals that govern our solar system]
    Atoms joined together in a certain fashion form molecules.
    Molecules joined together form organs.
    Organs joined/working together form systems. [nervous system/digestive system/circulatory system/skeleton system etc..]
    Systems working together form a body.
    Bodies working together form a family.
    Families working together form a church. [neighborhood/community/county/city/state/nation/etc…]
    Churches working together form a denomination.

    We are made up of many ‘worlds’ [atoms] ; are a ‘world’; and also interact/are a part of MANY worlds.

    This ‘blog’ is a ‘world’…
    Ira as the webmaster…. the nucleus/hub…
    We can become a part of/interact in that world…because he has welcomed/allowed us to.
    Adding a ‘post’ is simply worlds interacting with worlds…
    Respecting each other’s world…
    Each one adding a different flavor…presenting thots from their own respective ‘worlds’…

    Yet this blog is only one of many streaming from a host/nucleus/hub.
    And, that host is only one of many others…
    on and on it goes…

    A world…basically would be something that has a nucleus/hub with certain things orbiting around it.
    The sun is the center/nucleus of our solar system.
    Our solar system is one of many that form a galaxy.
    [So a galaxy would have something forming it’s nucleus as well…something for the solar systems to revolve around]
    Our galaxy only one of many…
    [ once again, those many galaxies would have a ‘nucleus/hub’ as well ]
    And on and on and on it goes.
    If a ‘universe’ is everything that exists…then at the center of the universe…is…where God’s home is.
    [So to get to God’s ‘home’ or eternal glory, [the hub/center/nucleus of it all ] one would have to travel thru countless galaxies. If there is no mode of ‘traveling’ other than what the principals of the 3rd dimension allow, then that means that Jesus isn’t there yet, either. So this means that He isn’t seated at the right hand of God, but is still trying to get there…]
    Basically it would be like this. The universe would have God and His ‘home’ if you want to call it that, as the nucleus, and from there on out would be endless galaxies…within those galaxies many solar systems…within those solar systems…other systems…on and on..
    As far as God having other ‘creative’ works [all kinds of creativity] going on, other than the one in which we live presently…
    While it is true that this time world in which we live is very special, in that it is being used for the express purpose of forming ‘sons of God’, I would believe [because of principals involved] that He has many other ‘projects’ going on.
    We live in the midst of a mind boggling array of ‘creativity’. Nature…the harmony of nature…is mind boggling. Some mind boggling creatures out there. Especially some of the smaller insects. Many of their designs/details/colors/functions are astounding.
    Only the ‘tip’ of the iceburg’…I do believe…
    Don’t forget…this time world is only a blip…in the midst of ‘no beginning and no end’.
    [Yet, for us, a very important ‘blip’. :)]
    Surely He was ‘busy’ before this time world ‘blip’ came along, and surely He is going to be ‘busy’ during and after…
    [in fact…sons of God…will have the privilege of being a PART of that continuing work. IF… they are willing to learn/be taught…that is. Most want to do their OWN thing…go their OWN way. That is the huge bulk of humanity. Right here and now is where we display as to whether we are concerned/care about what He thinks about matters, whether we care to learn the principals which are embedded ALL around us,[in scripture/nature]
    or if we simply ignore them. We are fooling ourselves if we think He is going to ‘welcome’ us into His ‘home’ if we are not highly concerned about what and how He thinks about matters! If we are not concerned now…neither will we be then, [as the tree falls…so shall it lie]and no one knows this better than He does. ]
    If we understand who Jesus was, and what it cost Him to ‘produce’ these ‘sons of God’, then we can realize that this is a ‘once in eternity’ happening.
    What is taking place here, as far as the creation/formation of ‘sons of God like no others’ can take place only once.
    And nowhere else.
    Never before and never after.
    Just some thots from ‘my world’…:)

    Comment by Fritz — March 17, 2009 @ 12:20 pm

  15. Larry Norman had a song, Unidentified Flying Object, and the memorable line for me is this:

    And if there’s life on other planets.

    I’m sure that He must know.

    And He’s been there once already.

    And has died to save their souls.

    [full lyrics here: ]

    If there are beings on other worlds,
    I bet Jesus died for them too.

    Comment by LeRoy — March 17, 2009 @ 3:14 pm

  16. I’m very open that there is “other life” out there. I was priveleged to clearly see fifth deminsion (which one? I dunno and I don’t need to know WHICH one). I was told that mathetically there are 12 deminsions. We can see four. It is within our comfort zone to understand and support what we can SEE and understand. That deminsion I saw were nothing like what we are used to. Only one thing that is familar is awareness of own soul’s existence. I sometimes wondered about angels mentioned in Revelations. Did some people saw glimses of them and thought UFO? If indeed there’s “other life” out there, it may be NOTHING like what we understood. God is very creative. Isn’t it fun sometimes to try to see if we could find what’s out there? I sometimes wondered if some of these “UFOs” are actually a work of Satan to throw us off. Satan can appear to us as angel of light. What else can this unholy being get us to see? Who’s to judge? Exactly what to believe? I’m not going to sweat over small things. I’m gonna leave it all in God’s hand and continue to excercise faith according to Jesus. Faith is believing in what we could not see. I am fearful only when a person tried to be a God concerning LIFE.

    Comment by Jean H — March 17, 2009 @ 6:02 pm

  17. I guess it all depends what one means by ‘other life’.

    I believe in ‘other life’, but no other life like unto us ‘human beings’.

    I believe there are 2 kinds of ‘sons of God’, or we could say, 2 kinds of angelic beings.

    1. Heavenly angelic beings, who are more or less spiritual robots, created to simply do the will of God.

    2. Earthly angelic beings, or us human beings. Creatures of choice. [also called angelic beings in the scriptures] Who are lower in status, in this life, than the heavenly angelic beings.
    But…they have the opportunity to end up with a higher status than the heavenly angelic beings, in the ‘world to come’.

    Those that experience the 1st resurrection while in THIS life [a spiritual quickening/awakening] will receive a immortal, glorified body at the 2nd resurrection at the end of time. [as Paul wrote in 1 Cor 15…that body will have varying degrees of ‘glory’, depending on our spiritual development]

    Those not experiencing that 1st resurrection will simply get their old bodies back.

    Human beings are the only beings ever created that are in need of ‘redemption’, that are given this opportunity…..

    There is a lot to gain…and a lot to lose. Far more than what most realize.

    That…is what i would believe to be truth.

    Comment by Fritz — March 17, 2009 @ 8:34 pm

  18. To the guy that wrote#13, do you believe Bush was responsible for the 9-11 towers collapse? I’ve argued with lots of loony leftists who believe that conspiracy! I personally believe it’s very offensive and disrespectful because that is accusing Bush of terrorism. I lay a challenge to you; call Sean Hannity and present your case he will make you look like a fool, he had a guy on that wrote a book accusing Bush of the twin tower collapse. He also had a guy on that was an expert they both had all the time to talk that they wanted. Needless to say the loony conspirasy kook was debunked with facts on every conspiracy regarding 9-11.

    Comment by Matt Yutzy — March 17, 2009 @ 11:15 pm

  19. Ira, I don’t know what you have up your sleeve for this week, but good luck! Holy mackeral! Wait, ARE mackeral really holy, or are they just plain fish – discuss amongst yourselves…. HA HA :)

    Comment by Beth Russo — March 18, 2009 @ 8:06 am

  20. I am surprised you are getting this many responses this week.

    Comment by Katie Troyer — March 18, 2009 @ 9:31 am

  21. Some things that came to light during the Oliver North case….
    Quite lengthy…but quite revealing…

    Comment by Fritz — March 18, 2009 @ 10:15 am

  22. “Ira’s response: Ahem. You forgot the little model airplanes. I suppose they just materialized on their own???”

    Oops. Distracted by the sheer magnitude of uncompromising facts, I missed that one. I hate it when that happens; you lay it all out and then, bam. That one unyielding fact jumps out and bites you. Utterly destroys your theory, throws you in the dirt. All I can do is crawl back in humbly remorse to grovelingly admit my minute oversight. My bad. You win. You had miniature airplanes made of gold, and I didn’t.

    Comment by Dave Miller — March 18, 2009 @ 12:44 pm

  23. Re: #18. Matt, who can say who’s responsible? In some ways, we all are, by trusting the government more than God, and electing those who promote themselves, rather than people of known character and principles.

    I acknowledged the looney left in my comments, and cautioned agaisnt Griffin’s leanings. I also said, “Look at the EVIDENCE.” Explain just those 5 things mentioned by one plane-per-Tower, even if all it’s jet fuel were put in a blast furnace on a couple floors.

    SEE the video presentation 911Mysteries:Demolitions, even if new age crackpots put it together (I don’t know who they are – the intro claims the guy was a “conservative Republican,” but I don’t believe him). It’s the EVIDENCE I’m talking about. Prof. Stephen Jones is a Mormon; I don’t like that, but his physics comments make sense.

    The idea that near stone-age Pakistanis did all that without backing is a conspiracy theory, too, don’t forget. No matter how you look at it, the Towers (including WTC7, whose collapse was announced in England before the event took place) did not come down by spontaneous combustion, so someone had to have planned something! Is such media a good source, especially when that explanation defied physics? This is the question.

    Back to responsibility, Transportation Sec’y Mineta testified before Congress to Cheney sitting in a bunker giving orders that morning. These were apparently stand-down (no fly) orders so military planes would NOT intercept incoming jets, as they normally do, at least a hundred times a year. That is recorded in Griffin’s book Debunking 9/11 Debunking, and the video clip is viewable on “Loose Change” which you can also buy, or maybe even view for free on the web. Again, I’m totally freaked out by the use liberals try to make of this. But conservatives are so open-minded, you can’t generally discuss evidence rationally.

    Comment by LeRoy — March 18, 2009 @ 3:31 pm

  24. Correct link….

    Comment by Fritz — March 19, 2009 @ 11:05 pm

  25. re 23. Near stone age Pakistanis? Maybe you should do some research on the world around you! If you believe al-Quada is stone age and primitive I can’t imagine where the rest of your “facts” about 9/11 are coming from.

    Comment by Mike — March 20, 2009 @ 1:51 pm

  26. (to Mike, comment 25)

    Hyperbole. Rhetoric. The Pakistan govt is not stone age – they exploded a nuke, right? But the only reason al-qaeda isn’t is because some others have trained them. Which is the point. The US raised up and trained Osama (to fight the Russians from getting a warm water port in Afghanistan). I could go on, but I said too much here already.

    The rest of my facts are not imagined. I gave you some sources. I dare you to look at them.

    But mainly, your own eyes. Look at the mere 5 things mentioned. Especially this: free fall speed, not pancaking collapse due to weight from above; pulverization, not pancaked floors; and molten steel running below ground for weeks or months (get informed – the firefighters know about it); and where is the steel? (it was shipped off immediately, conveniently “broken” into truck-sized pieces).

    Comment by LeRoy — March 20, 2009 @ 8:48 pm

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